A dialogue with Richard H. Schwartz,
emeritus professor of mathematics
at the College of Staten Island, New York, author
of numerous books and
articles on vegetarianism and Judaism.
By Henny van Immerzeel
Richard Schwartz's interest in an animal-friendly
lifestyle was aroused when, in 1975, he began teaching
a course "Mathematics and the Environment",
using mathematical concepts to explore current critical
issues. While reviewing material related to world
hunger, he became more and more aware of the waste
of grain associated with the production of meat and
of the horrible conditions under which animals raised
for this purpose are being kept. In 1978 he became
a practicing vegetarian and started to investigate
connections between vegetarianism and Judaism. He
learned that the first Biblical dietary law (Gen.
1:29) is strictly vegetarian and became convinced
that elementary Jewish mandates--share with hungry
people, preserve your health, protect the environment,
conserve resources, be kind to animals and seek and
pursue peace--all point to an animal-friendly diet
as a condition for their fulfillment.
Increasingly, he has become aware of the necessity
to direct attention not only to the production of
meat, but also to the production of eggs and dairy
products, and come to see a (strict)-vegetarian lifestyle
as not so much a matter of personal choice but as
a social imperative that concerns everyone. In order
to raise awareness of this issue, Richard the United
States, gives frequent lectures and has recently started
a "Campaign for a Vegetarian-Conscious Israel
by 2000". Plenty of reasons, therefore, to invite
Richard Schwartz for an interview.
Richard, as you know (a part of) our dialogue will
be published in the
Dutch Vegan Society's Journal. In the discussion on
Judaism and vegetarianism, it seems the focus is very
much on the consumption of meat. In your books and
articles, you point out that the mandates, given in
the Torah, are not being served by lifestyles, based
on the consumption of animal products. Does this mean
that you agree with the idea that a vegan lifestyle
would be the lifestyle most conducive to the realisation
of these mandates?
Schwartz: I strongly agree with this. I believe that
a switch to vegan diets has become a social imperative
because of the great economic and ecological costs
of animal-based diets and production processes, as
well as a spiritual imperative because the realities
of the production and consumption of animal products
is at sharp variance from basic religious values.
I try to express my concern about the production of
eggs and dairy products as well as flesh in the diet.
I have started to use expressions more consistent
with veganism; in recent years I generally refer to
"animal-based diets". I still use the term
"vegetarianism" though, partly out of habit,
and partly because for some, this might make it easier
to take that first step.
Regulations
You defend the position that strict-vegetarianism
is presented as a positive ideal in the Torah. Yet
there are extensive rules and regulations concerning
the consumption of animal products to be found in
the Torah. Do you have an explanation for this?
Schwartz: God's first dietary law was strictly vegan
and the famous Jewish Torah commentator Rashi says
that: "God did not permit Adam and his wife to
kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only every green
herb shall they eat together". Many other Torah
commentators agree with this. One of the most important
supporters of a Jewish strictly vegetarian lifestyle
was Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hacohen Kook (1865-1935),
a highly respected Jewish spiritual leader in the
twentieth century. Rav Kook said that the permission
to eat meat was only a temporary one. The Eternal,
who is merciful, would never institute an everlasting
law permitting the killing of animals for food. According
to Rav Kook, because people had sunk to such an extreme
level of spirituality that they were in danger of
eating each other when deprived of meat. In order
to allow them to improve the relationships between
people and to develop spiritually, a temporary dispensation
was given until such time had been reached that people
returned to a strict- vegetarian diet. The many rules
and regulations were needed, according to Rav Kook,
to keep alive a sense of reverence for life and to
prevent people from taking the killing of animals
for granted.
Schwartz: What is more, the rules and regulations
associated with meat-eating might lead people away
from their lust for meat. Rav Kook was convinced that,
in the days of the Messiah, people would return to
a strict-vegetarian diet. This thought is also found
in a Midrash (short teaching or commentary on a Torah
text) stating: "In the Messianic era, all offerings
will cease except the thanksgiving offering, which
will continue forever".
Your publications are aimed at Jewish people who
wish to live by the principles of their religion.
Yet there are liberal and orthodox Jews, and there
are specific traditions like the Hasidic tradition
in Judaism. Would you say your message is meant for
a broad public?
Schwartz: Yes, my message is such that it can and
should be accepted by all Jews, no matter how great
their religiosity. Some religious Jews ask if vegetarians,
by putting vegetarian values ahead of Jewish teachings,
aren't creating a new religion, with values contrary
to Jewish teachings. My answer to that is that, on
the contrary, Jewish values are served by a strict-vegetarian
diet, especially in view of the many problems related
to factory-farming. Rather than rejecting Torah values,
Jewish vegetarians are challenging the Jewish community
to apply precisely these values to their every day
diets. We are respectfully challenging Jews to live
up to Judaism's splendid teachings. It is not enough
that a religion should have beautiful teachings; the
essential is that these be put into practice.
You work hard for an official rabbinic statement
in favour of (strict) vegetarianism. What would the
impact of such a statement be?
Schwartz: This would be extremely important, and
I often send material to rabbis in the hope that they
will endorse vegetarianism. Rabbi David Rosen, a modern
Israeli Orthodox rabbi and former Chief Rabbi of Ireland
has already stated that "the current treatment
of animals in the livestock trade definitely renders
the consumption of meat as halachically (according
to Jewish law) unacceptable as the product of illegitimate
means.
Messianic Vision
Departing from the idea that in the Messianic era
people will return to a strict-vegetarian diet, the
author Joe Green has concluded that in adopting the
diet that will be used during the time of the Messiah,
Jewish ethical vegetarians are leading lives that
make the coming of the Messiah more likely. Would
you agree?
Schwartz: Yes, I do agree. The Jewish tradition teaches
that one way to speed the coming of the Messiah is
to start practicing the ways that will prevail in
the Messianic time. For example, the Talmud teaches
that if all Jews properly observed two consecutive
Sabbaths, the Messiah would immediately come. This
means symbolically that when all Jews reach the level
when they can fully observe the Sabbath in terms of
devotion to God and compassion for people and non-human
animals, the conditions would be such that the Messianic
period would have arrived. Hence, if all became strict-vegetarian
in the proper spirit, with compassion for animals
and human beings, and concern about preserving God's
world, perhaps thas would mean that the Messianic
period would be here.....
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